巴尔提·卡尔 : 无常之态
Three decimal points,of a minute,of a second,of a degree,2014. Wood, metal, granite,and rope.
《Sculpture》201705期
Rajesh Punj
如果科学由事实的本身所决定，艺术则是接近于虚构，游离在确定与不确定之间，目的是创造我们现今和未来可能生活的视觉比喻。生于英国，扎根于印度的巴尔提·卡尔将艺术视为一种形势。她对材料和物质的专注，是通过对人类行为的思考而来——我们如何与他人互动。她看到社会进步的个人代价：“很奇怪，现在的印度，人们选择轻易的使自己的情绪被艺术，影像和其它的一些事物所伤害，而不是去看真正的世界，去发现你自己正在做的事情极其值得怀疑。”卡尔看到力量，进步和政治正在取代那些塑造了印度人民的更短暂的活力和联盟。
对她而言，制作作品的乐趣里伴随着认知，在这个过程中她是历史的见证人。个人生活是她探索和解释现代城市生活及其本身的一种方式。把塑料涂在木板上，将宾迪（眉心红点）压在漆板上，在混泥土上平衡花岗岩，在她所处的环境中这些行为都有风险。她将自己的角色视为一个不完全近乎于煽动者和领导人，更多的是一个证人般的艺术家，用外域的眼光审视现实，重新看待一切。她最近的作品关注于对潜在行为的剖析；在这些不同材料的配置中，一切都可能在一瞬间发生改变。
ChimeraI,II,III,2016.Wax,concrete,plaster,Hessian fibre,and brass.
Rajesh Punj：我对你最近在巴黎贝浩登画廊展出的作品很感兴趣，想跟你谈谈。
Bharti Kher：在去年的两个月里，我做了贝浩登画廊和伦敦佛洛依德博物馆的展览。你得用不一样的方式对待不同的项目。有时候，空间，特别是画廊空间，需求新的规划，能允许你实现一些与环境相关的东西。
RP : 所以，你是否在看到美术馆之后去考虑放置什么样的作品可以相得益彰？
BK：不，因为我有一段很棒的生产期，允许我去做想要的东西。多年来我工作的方式是，只展览而不生产大量的作品，因为我忙于写展览理论，参考相关的文献，以及如何去传播作品。至于其它的一些时间，我到了工作室，便关上门，集中精力做东西。在过去的一年半时间里，我一直都能做到这一点，这样做的好处是，让我有时间去寻找并实现新的想法，尤其是材料方面的。我的实验并没有一个具体的方向；我认为这是周期性的。我不会朝一个方向走，沿着一条路走很长一段时间，然后突然改变我的工作—这一切都是同时发生的。
RP：所以，你会回到有意思的想法上。
BK：是的，然后新的作品或材料会引导我。因为我的实践是由材料驱动的，就像一种炼金术，它变成了一种投资于物质的方式，推动了材料转化的思想，并且让它拥有能改变空间的能量。这听起来可能有点戏谑，但是艺术家有时可以玩玩杂技，不是吗？我们可以变的有点像“巫师“，然后再全身而退。
RP : 在印度，信仰是基本的。
BK：我想说艺术实际上是关于信仰和思想的，否则你如何能命名一些东西并认为它就是它。这实际上是关于命名一件事物并且对其怀有信念。艺术家创作的东西是无人需要的。只因为，“这就是它，是值得思考的东西，”事实上任何人都在思考。但是对它命名是愚蠢的，因为我们用很多方式在做愚蠢的项目。我感兴趣的是把愚蠢作为一个项目，作为一个对象，对我来说，这个展览到达了一个空间，那里的物品和材料都是关于平衡和均衡的。我不再担心完全连贯的叙述，因为我不认为我是那样工作的。我不创造故事，我认为我的作品并不连贯。
Front and back views of the betrayal of causes once held dear VI,2014-2016. Wood,cork,bindis,wax,and glass,218x200x52cm.
RP：有趣的是，当很多评论对你作品下的解释施加压力时，你承认你的方式具有不确定性。你如何适应这些不同的意见？
BK：我认为你不用去在意这些。当你不能像你想象的那样控制一切的时候，就会有很多意见出来。但是，在某种情况下，艺术家的声音变的很重要，这就是为什么我认为采访很重要。这也是为什么你自己的写作很有趣，为什么你要把别人带进来，因为有时候你的谈话并不会被出版出来。这是一种警示，但是考虑也是出于害怕，所以你可以让作品更自主，而且我相信一段时间过后它会找到自身的轨迹。人们追求完整性，但艺术不是寻求完整的地方，对吗？我并不在我的工作中寻求完整，否则它会变得太“舒适“。要想搞艺术，你得有点不舒服，挑战性。
有时候就是要去制作，这是我喜欢做的事情。我喜欢用手来做东西。我喜欢用粘土和建材做东西。我喜欢绘画，雕刻和上色。我喜欢做这些事情，因为它们给了我很大的乐趣。然后在其中的某部分，我在一种语言中迷失自己，就让艺术将你带到一个单独的轴上。你在那儿呆了一会，相当愉快。而另一部分要做的事就是：“你的工作是什么。“
RP：我并不想问这个问题，因为相反的，我认为艺术是没有功能的。
BK：你应该问，“所以，你的工作是做什么？“好吧，要看情况。它在讨论语言吗?它是否讨论了你应该如何看待形状，平衡，形式和体积?你是否应该通过身体去体验这件作品?或者你应该用你的智慧和理智来体验这些工作?你应该问问题吗？你是否觉得被剥夺了公民权，有奇怪的不安，或者感到平静？有些作品让你哭泣，有一些不能。
RP : 这挺有意思的，你的工作是关于材料，物质和固体的；你提到的每一件事物都与抽象和瞬间有关。他们是如何搭在一起的？你如何用材料创造一个物品来培养一整套的感觉？值得注意的是，这就是作品中让我感兴趣的空间，同时也也暗含于作品之中。
BK：我们都变的更加老道了不是吗？我们能够创造声音，气味和视觉之间的联系。有时当你创作艺术时，你不再是看着你所看到的；你也在为你所听到的东西创造一种感官环境。你必须得穿过那道墙才能获得完整的体验，你就能像动物一样工作。你便不在作为一个人。
Left：give and take，2011. Wood,leather,cotton,and resin，165x79x76cm.
RP : 在回顾现代艺术时，我经常会从中阅读到当代艺术。现代作品如何激发出了真正的崇敬，真是难以置信。这是一种文化体验的一部分，它跨越了文学，语言，电影和时尚。当代艺术似乎只存在于文化之中，而大众已经适应了一切激进而又革命性的东西。
BK：也许那只是野兽的本性。艺术世界已成为一种马戏团式的景观，它已成为企业和娱乐产业的一部分。如果你愿意，你可以留在那里玩那个游戏，因为我们都是玩家。我们都在画廊系统中。我们就不要自命清高了——我们皆在在其中，并且要决定什么能让我们快乐。如果这是你的部分你只能表演。有些人做的得心应手；他们真的很擅长，你会觉得，“哇哦，那是一件大作。”规模巨大，野心勃勃，它的实现说明了背后有很多的支持。我认为现在的艺术世界非常有意思。它变的更加包容，包括了来自其它学科和集体的实践者，我觉得特别有趣。我认为艺术世界要大得多，因此，要吸引每个人的注意力就难得多了。现在要知道所有人的情况也更加困难。它已经成为一份全职工作。
RP：我猜，当你不断旅行的时候，你被高频的告知你的位置和正在发生的事情。你必须有一种消费文化的方法。
BK : 不，我真的不屑如此。我真的很藐视这样的东西，应为我不是一个常用社交媒体的人。我坐在这里办我的展览，然后给一个朋友打电话说：“我们出去吃饭吧，”然后好好聊一聊。
RP : 我认为，作为一个艺术家，承担的风险对批评家和策展人来说是不同的，因为这样的追求会分散工作的注意力。我想到了安迪沃霍尔，他接纳了所有这些，更久远一点的，梵高，他因孤立而沉溺于艺术。
BK：这些东西让人分心，纯属噪音。现在几乎没有时间去完善和执行你的所有想法。在所有作品的制作过程中你几乎没有时间去观看相关的成百上千的电影。你觉得有些时候你必须要冷静一点，我意识到比起其它任何事，我喜欢呆在我的工作室里。我喜欢每天早上起来做同样的事情，因为它以一种奇怪的方式予以我慰藉。也许我只是一个习惯性生物：我每天10点去我的工作室，工作一整天，然后回家并思考到，“今天我开始了一个新的项目；我有做了点什么。“我喜欢突破材料，使它成为原本不应该成为的事物。我喜欢挑战事物，将它做成你不曾见过的模样。然后，我的练习便转换成各种形式的语言并作用为我工作的方法；此后，一旦你确定了它们，你就可以开始用它们说话。你可以创造你自己的代码和交流方式，不同的是，这不是自说自话，它是关于沟通和交流的行为。
RP：所以，你视你不同性质的作品为一组语言？
BK：我看着宾迪系列，长期以来我不是很确定它是否是一种语言。你可以说，“我为什么要着眼于此？”或者“我为什么继续如此重复？”这只是一个将宾迪弄到板子上的过程。但是就像它们那样平静的出现，我将其视为关于时间的行动绘画。通过专注于它们，你开始觉得宾迪是字母，于是我构想了一种语言。这些作品就变成了一个文本，就像我创造的莫尔斯密码，通过它们，我甚至可以说方言，我也可以更加的模棱两可和更加的开放。
RP：贝浩登画廊展出了两件新的宾迪作品。
BK：是的，我仍在继续做它们。时不时的，我总认为我完成了。这些宾迪作品叫“女杰书简”系列，目前为止我制作了两件，是关于奥维德在四世纪时所写的书，我还没有读完。“女杰书简”本质上是一系列从女性角度着写的书信。当我开始阅读它们的时候，我以为它们是真实的，所以我非常兴奋。后来我意识到，这是虚构的，但是也同样有趣，因为奥维德是第一个以女性作为第一人称写作的男作家，而且他写的还挺好。这15封信是写给一个失去多年的爱人——一个离开的男人，背叛了她，找了别的爱人。信中有些是生气的，有些是苦涩的，也有的优美动人，还有一些是关于死亡的。在某处，将这些诗歌放在一起是一个惊讶的想法，所以我开始将它们写出来。这些宾迪作品就是我写给人们的信。
RP：这些宾迪作品都是独一无二的吗？我从中看到一种模式。
BK : 写作也像一个模式，一个过程。我将我的宾迪作品视为诗歌，并且作为一种语言，我看到很多种格式。
RP : 对比巴黎，你在新德里的工作如何?
BK : 我认为这之间的差距非常小。公平且诚实的来说，一些作品在印度比在欧洲更受欢迎；这取决于作品，但是差别很小。我觉得那些看艺术的人懂艺术。这是它自己的语言。
RP：你是否发现了很多的不确定而不是去学习一些既定的事。
BK：我觉得我更愿意去接受不确定的状况，因为不断的记录你所有的盒子的想法并且每一件都做正确没什么趣味。做艺术就像寻找圣杯一样，你永远也找不到它，这也是一种意识，你正在追寻着什么。它就像哲学家的石头或者对圣杯的追寻。有时候它就像这样的愚蠢，这奖品也显得很讽刺，而干扰来自于你真正在做的事。制作是一场旅程。
Rajesh Punj是伦敦的一位作家和策展人。
Source Text：
If science is determined by a body of facts， then art is closer to fiction， moving between states of certainty anduncertainty in order to create visual parables of our lives as they are now， and are likely to be in the future。English-born， New Delhi-based Bharti Kher sees art as a situation. Her preoccupation with materials and matteris marched by her consideration of human behavior – how we interact with oneanother. She sees societal advances coming at the cost of the individual：“It is strange now in India how it become theeasy option to have your sentiments hurt by art，imagery，and other things，rather than to look at the real world and to find that what you aredoing is extremely problematic.”Kher sees power，progress， and politics as having surprised the more ephemeral energies andalliances that have shaped the people of India.
For her, the joy of making work comes with the knowledge that she iswitness to history as it unfolds. Individual lives are a measure of herintention to explore and explain what it is to be and of the modern city. Applyingplastic to wood, pressing bindis to painted board, and balancing granite overconcrete are all actions of adventure within her environment. She sees her roleas an artist less as a provocateur or protagonist, but more as a witness,looking over reality with an alien eye, seeing everything anew. Her most recentwork draws attention to the anatomy of potential actions; within theseconfigurations of different materials, everything could change in an instant.
Rajesh Punj: I am interested in talkingabout the works that you created for your recent show at Galerie Perrotin inParis.
Bharti Kher: over a two-month period lastyear, I did the Galerie Perrotin show and an exhibition at the Freud Museum in London.You approach different projects differently. Sometimes spaces, specificallygallery spaces, call for new projects that allow you to achieve somethingappropriate to the environment.
RP: So, did yousee the galleries and then consider what would sit well as a body of work?
BK: No, because Ihad a nice period of production that allowed me to do what I wanted. The waythat I work is that there are years when I only exhibit and don’t produce muchwork because I am busy with exhibitions-writing, thinking about related literatureand how the work gets disseminated. And then there are other times when I go tothe studio, close the door, and concentrate on making work. I have been able todo that for the past year and a half, which has been really good because it hasallowed me time to find and push new ideas,especially materials. I don’t reallysee my practice as direction-base; I see it as quite cyclical. I don’t go offin one direction, follow that path for a long time, and then suddenly change mywork-it all sort of happens at the same time.
RP: So, you comeback to existing ideas.
BK: Yes, andthen new works or materials lead me. Because my practice is quite materialsdriven, like a kind of alchemy, it becomes a way of investing in matter, ofpushing ideas that see material as transformative and allowing it to have anenergy that transforms a space. It can sound a “little hokey-pokey,” butartists can be a little hokey-pokey sometimes, can’t they? We can be a little “witchy”and get away with it.
RP: Faith isfundamental in India.
BK: I would saythat art is really about faith and ideas, otherwise how would you namesomething and say it is what it is? It is really about naming and having faithin an object. Artists make things that nobody needs. It is only because thesay, ”this is what it is and is worth considering,” that anyone actuallyconsiders it. But to name it is also a complete folly because we are makingfolly projects in many ways. I am interested in the idea of the folly as aproject, as an object. For me, this exhibition arrived at a space where theobjects and the materials are all about balance and equilibrium. I’m notworried about completely coherent narratives anymore, because I don’t think Iwork like that. I don’t create narratives, and I see my work as quitedisjointed.
RP: It isinteresting that you identify the uncertainty of your approach, when so muchcommentary stresses that there is an explanatory underlying your work. How doyou accommodate these other opinions?
BK: Ithink you have to just let go. There will be points when you can’t controleverything as much as you want. But then, at some point, the artist’s voicebecomes important, which is why I think interviews are important. This is whyyour own writing is interesting, why you sometimes have to bring people in,because the conversations that you have sometimes are the ones that don’t getput out there. There is an element of caution, but consideration is also aboutfear，so you can allow the work to do what it does，and I think that it finds its own trajectoryafter a while. People think that they want completion, but art’s not the placeto seek completion, is it? I am not seeking completion in my work, otherwise itwould become too “comfortable.” To make art, you have to be a littleuncomfortable, challenged.
Sometimes it is really about making, whichis something I like to do. I like making things with my hands. I like makingthings in clay and building. I like drawing and sculpting and coloring. I likedoing these things because they give me a great deal of pleasure. And thenthere is that part of it in which I can lose myself in a language, whereby arttakes you to a separate axis. You are there for a moment, and it is quite ahigh. The other part posed to do something: ”what dose your work do?”
RP: I have neverasked that, because, on the contrary, I see art as being without function.
BK: you shouldask, “so, what does your work do?” well, it depends. Does it talk aboutlanguage? Does it talk about how you are supposed to look at shapes, balance,form, and volume? Are you supposed to experience the work through your body? Orare you supposed to experience the work through your intellect, through yourmind? Are you supposed to ask questions? Are you supposed to feeldisenfranchised, strangely unsettled, or at peace? Some works make you weep;some works don’t.
RP: This is veryinteresting, because your work is all about the material, the physical, thesolid; and everything you mention has to do with the abstract and theephemeral. How do they sit together? How do you use materials to create anobject intend to cultivate a set of sensation? Significantly, it is the spacearound the work that interests me, and what that alludes to.
BK: We are allmore sophisticated now, aren’t we? We are able to create the connection betweensound and smell and vision. Sometimes when you make art, you are not justlooking at what you see; you are also creating a sensory environment for thethings that you hear. You have to cross over the wall to have a completeexperience, and you can experience the work like an animal. You are not humananymore.
RP: I amconstantly reading about contemporaryart while looking back at modern art. There is something incredible about howmodern works inspired genuine awe. This was pert of a cultural experience thatbridged over into literature, language, film, and fashion. Contemporary artseems to exist only in and of itself as culture, and the crowd has acclimatedto everything being radical and revolutionary, with a corporate.
BK: Maybe thatis just the nature of the beast. The art world has become a circus-style spectacle,and it has become corporate and part of the entertainment industry. You can staythere and play that game if you want, because we are all players. We are all inthe gallery system. Let’s not be holier-than-thou-we are all in it, and we haveto decide what makes us happy. You can only perform if that’s part of you. Somepeople do it really well; they are really good at it, and you think, ”wow, that’sa great piece.” The scale is huge, the ambition is gigantic, and the executionsuggests there is a lot of support. I think the art world is quite interestingnow. it has become a lot more inclusive, including practitioners from otherdisciplines and collectives, and I think that is really interesting. I thinkthe art world is much bigger, and, as a consequence, it is much harder to holdeveryone’s attention. It is much harder to know about everyone now. it hasbecome a full-time job.
RP: I guess whenyou are constantly traveling, you’re efficiently being informed of where youare and of what’s happening. You must have a method of consuming culture.
BK: No, I amreally shit at it. I am really shit at stuff like this, because I am not asocial media person. I sit here and do my show and then I call a friend andsay,” let’s go out for dinner,” and have a nice chat.
RP: I think thedanger as an artist-obviously, it’s different for critics and curators- is thatsuch pursuits can distract from the work. I think of Andy Warhol, who embracedall of that or, more historically, Van Gogh, who indulged in art by isolation.
BK: It is verydistracting, just noise. There is so little time now to finish everything andexecute all of your ideas. there is so little time to watch the hundred filmsthat you need to read in between making all of your work. You feel sometimesthat you have to be a bit calmer, and I realize I like being in my studio morethan anything else. I like getting up in the morning and doing the same thingevery day， because it givesme comfort in some strange way. Maybe I am just a creature of habit： I like going to my studio every day at 10 o'clock and working the whole day and going homeand thinking，“today I starteda new project；I did something.”And I like to push materials to do things that they are not supposed to do. Ilike the challenge of creating imagery that doesn’t look like anything you haveseen before. And then， I have within my practice many different types of languages that function as methodsof working； after a while， once you have established them， you can start to speak them. You can createyour own codes and your own ways ofcommunicating，which aredifferent， not about beingself-referential；it is reallyabout communication and the act of communicating.
RP: so，you see your different bodies of work as a setof languages？
BK：I see the bindi works，which for a longtime I wasn’t entirely sure about，as a language. You can say， “why am I lookingat this？” or “why am I carry on being so repetitive？” It is just the action of applying a bindi toa panel. But as placid as they appear， I see them as action paintings that are about time. By concentratingon them， you start tothink that bindis are letters， and that I have conceived a language. Those works become a text，like a Morse code that I have created， and ， through them， I can actually speak in tongues，I can be more ambiguous and more open.
RP: There were two new bindi works in theGalerie Perrotin show.
BK: Yes， I still makethem. Every now and then I think that I am done. Those bindi pieces are calledthe“Heroides”series， and I have made two of them so far， relating to a book written by Ovid in the fourth century， which I haven’t finished reading yet. The “Heroides”are essentially a series of letters written from the point of viewof women. When I began reading them， I thought they were true， so I was incredibly excited. Then I realized that it was afictional work， which is alsoreally interesting， because Ovid was one of the first male writers to write as a woman， and he wasn’t really that bad at it. His 15 lettersare written to long-lost lovers-the men who left， who betrayed，who found other lovers. Some are angry， some are bitter， others are beautiful， and some are about death. It was an amazing idea to have thesepoems together in one place， so I started writing them out. I see these bindi works as letters Ihave written to people.
RP: Are the bindi works individuallyunique？ I see a patternto them.
BK: Writing is also like a pattern， a process. I see some of my bindi works aspoems， and，as a language，I see a lot in the layout.
RP: How are you works received in New Delhi versus Paris？
BK: I think that gap is really small now. To be honest and perfectlyfair， some works arebetter received in India than in Europe； it depends on which works， but the difference is small. I think that people who look at artknow art. It is its own language.
RP: Do you discover moreuncertainties rather than learning anything certain？
BK: I think I am much happier to embrace thecondition of uncertainty now，because the idea ofconstantly ticking all of your boxes and being right about every is notinteresting. Making art is really about searching for the chalice， and you will never find it， which is part of knowing that you are lookingfor something. It’s like the philosopher's stone or the search for the Holy Grail. IThink it is as stupid as that sometimes， and the prize becomes the folly， the distraction from what you are reallydoing. The journey is in the making.
RajeshPunj is a writer and curator based in London.